Wednesday, January 16, 2013

I am a small portion of the community

For those that haven't seen it, the minutes from the December CSM summit are out. A couple of important quotes:
Unifex stated that what CCP did was spend effort and prototype what would make a good POS system. It would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes. Focusing that amount of time and effort on some small singular aspect of the game and delivering only that “is what will kill the business”.      (page 37)
Taking the opportunity to talk about POSes, Alek queried why the CSM were so late in learning that POSes were hard to do now. Further, he disagreed that POSes would only touch a small subset of the players and asked how did CCP feel able to accomplish the feat of balancing null-sec, which Alek viewed as comparatively more difficult than POSes. Soundwave was the first to respond and told Alek that he felt some of the assertions he made were incorrect and, from a game design perspective, implementing changes to null-sec and the sov system in general would be easier than revamping the POS system. On top of that, Soundwave added, the POS system by itself would only affect a small portion of the community.                                       (page 38)

It wasn't in the minutes, but I spent a lot of time talking to Unifex about this at night. Needless to say, I disagreed with CCP's decision to not move ahead with work on the POS system. I also disagree that only a small group of people would feel the effects of a new POS system. From wormhole residents to Tech 2 producers to nullsec residents, a lot of people interact with POSes. Also, a redesigned POS system would both attract players that were frustrated to the point of giving up with the old POS system as well as new players who cannot use the current POS system because of limitations with roles.

Even ignoring the incorrect statements about who would care about a POS rewrite, I feel that we are owed some work on the POS system. Wormholers have been very patient with CCP during the last couple years while other supposedly higher priority issues have been addressed. During that time, we sat back and continued to pay our subscriptions to CCP, secure in the "promise" that we felt CCP had made at FanFest in 2012 and again at the May/June CSM summit: They were working on a new POS system, there was no reason to fix the many issues with the current one.

That hope has turned out to be a false one. CCP decided that the full modular POS system would require the effort of the whole company for a whole expansion, and they feel the benefits don't justify that much effort. I personally don't agree, but I do feel that if CCP is not going to deliver the full modular POS vision right now, they MUST deliver improvements to the current system. When we were first told about the decision to not deliver modular POSes this summer, I led the CSM in the creation of a list of the needed improvements. The first item on the list, and in my opinion the bare minimum that CCP should deliver, is to have real private ship and item storage at POSes.

The good news is that CCP has not done their planning for the May expansion yet. That planning is happening right now, and CSM is involved in the process. I want you, the players, to be involved as well. I want you to tell CCP that you want POS improvements to be the bare minimum for the next expansion. I want you to tell CCP that you are "a small portion of the community". I've created a thread, please go here and let CCP know that you are also a small portion of the community.


  1. I replied. Two Step, you need to push them hard on this. I made my feeling pretty clear on these matters here:

    Also, any word on anyone picking up where CCP Dropbear left off?

    Keep fighting the good fight for us!

    Thanks dude.


  2. I feel that a pos revamp would not only help those of us who manage the towers, but could potentially fix some of the industry problems in Nullsec as well.

    The rebalancing of production modules, such as the intensive refining array, could possibly give industrial players the chance to flourish anywhere in the game.

    Towers are far more vulnerable then outposts, and the logical reason for a change to production in pos's is "higher risk=higher rewards".

    Whether CFO used this next expansion for a stepping stone to a larger revamp or not, even a partial pass would represent to the community that it's something being looked at.

    1. CFO=CCP

      I typed that on my phone and that's the only thing my Autocorrect changed.

  3. Year after year it really is the same with CCP. They promise and fail to deliver, a fixed POS system could go a long way to help Null sec not to mention WH dwellers.

    But as usual same tune different year.

    I may differ with you on a lot of things but give them hell. I see why you are not running again, hell I wouldn't want too either.

  4. Every Selsufficient corp (and there are really many around EVE)has at least 1 POS. I am alredy for 1 year around Lowsec and i really dont know if there is a single corp/Alliance that doest have a POS. My CEO has quite few to manage and it is really pain in the ass. And none wants to jump in to take the role of POS manager cos they sucks. Our corp could have 10 times more income than it is now from moon goo, but it would be too much Complicated POSes.

    Hey and if the POSes would be modular i d have one just for giggles and RP.

    1. I am the POS Manager for our small Anoikis corp. I design, setup and run the Lrg Minmawin POS we have lived in for almost 2 years... and I want to understand exactly what everyone is crying about? Exactly HOW are POSes 'too' hard?

      Think about what they represent... a building in space, generating a forcefield 30km in diameter, capable of powering and supplying Command & Control, Maintenance, housing, support and the multitude of functions that would be required for a SPACE STATION...

      I am sorry, but THAT JUST AINT GONNA BE EASY. And the Planetary Orbital Station we have today is far and away EASIER to run, manage and maintain than a REAL one would be... GOBS above and below PLEASE stop the juvenile whining and crying and HTFU. IT'S A SPACE STATION and it seems everyone wants it to be... what, A Treefort? A Barbie Beach house? So simple and EASY to setup fuel and run a CHILD can do it? OH effin please.

      I do want POS changes... I do want a modular POS.. I do want a POS I can dock in and I want a POS with a CQ, Mezzanine, Concourse, and WORKING WINDOWS... but PLEASE, please... don't dumb it down... don't steadily debase and simplify the ONLY game with realistic complexity... It SHOULDN'T be so easy a casual player can setup and run one within a few days of joining EvE...

      And if that's what you want... WHY ARE YOU PLAYING EVE and not WoW or Tanks or scrabble? By the gods people... it's an adult game, accept that and enjoy that it IS an adult game.

      I have heard it said, EvE players are to Geeks as Geeks are to regular people.

      Oh, and FFS sake quit using the word 'broken' when you mean "I'm not HAPPY with this."...

  5. If it can't be afforded and used by a casual player within a few days of getting into the game you're not going to see squat change in game now.

    If the CCP business is that fragile that it can't fix POSes after promising it again and again, well I'll let you draw your own conclusions, but it their words doing this one feature would "kill the business".

  6. For crying out loud ! A good new POS system was supposed to attract even SINGLE NOMAD pilots. From small groups building a home away from home up to alliance temporary staging facilities to their headquarters. ALL NEW POS.

    How dare CCP now come around arguing the usefulness of a POS revamp from the current usage of the currently broken system ?!


  7. I agree that a POS revamp is required. It would not only benefit the “Enablers” & “Instigators”, but new mechanics might encourage many players to have a go. I for one, have not bothered with the current system, even though it's something I would do if the system was improved.

    If CCP are going to apply the logic to only develop the areas of the game that players play the most, then Eve will stagnate. Would the scanning and exploration system have been overhauled had they applied this reasoning. I think not.

  8. It doesn't even have to be the modular POSes. I'd be satisfied solely with the ability to select a corp title (custom one) in the POS rights management.

  9. The fact Is that the community not only want modular POS, they want a "LEGO-POS, Sand Castle POS, PosCraft" or any other name that means Fredom of Construction, to shape it the way they want. If gathering names don't work... we can move everyone to jita and burn things...again...


    "I'm sure everyone will agree that the minutes contain nothing that could possibly be construed as controversial.

    Happy reading to you all.


    How do you work with this guy?

  11. Yes, it has a huge effect on the people that manage pos. But, what CCP seems to be forgetting, is that these guys are the foundation for much larger groups of players. All people in wormholes are benefited by a better pos system, as would be nullsec groups.

    Giving people easier tools to use would also lead to more emergent gameplay that we can't even predict yet. CCP needs to work on pos and titles/roles for them.

  12. Surely CCP's logic is a bit backward. Rather than shelving a POS revamp because it doesn't affect enough players (in their opinion), should they not be looking at ways to make it appeal to more players. A scalable "player housing" system could be made accessible to newer players and be a massive draw from new customers as well as making the established Starbase management culture far more user-friendly.

    I'm sure I've seen CCP Soundwave say things in support of the player housing concept.

    Seismic Stan

  13. I spent 1 1/2 years living out POS-es in the WHs of our alliance and I think I have Stockholm Syndrome. I actually like the POS mechanic. (I jest, of course).

    Managing a POS-based corp is so much work that it is basically its own game. We had several CEOs and Directors (myself included) burn out on it.

    I had expected an overhaul of the entire orbital infrastructure system together with DUST and am disappointing that CCP is not delivering on something they have so adamantly declared as needing a fix. The argument that it hits few people is circuitous, make the mechanic bad enough that nobody wants to live in WHs and then nobody will ask for improvements.

    Also, the conversation misses the real topic - a better POS design could be immensely helpful for invasion troops, quick ninja-mining raiders, help young players get into manufacture and invention and so on. I could be your own private place in space, help the story creation, RP and of course provide fat targets for PvP corps.

    So, while I will not post on EVE-O forums, you have my support to kick CCP on this.

  14. I think this is one of those times where we should watch what CCP DO and not what they SAY.

    Amirite guise?

  15. I think your points about POSes are valid but still for me if it will consume all of a expansion to do it I'll pass.

    I don't see in proposals for new POSes nothing that is appealing. It's just more of the same but with better interfaces and visuals. You can only live out of a POS in WH where is hard to bring the firepower to destroy it, in LS and Null, caps and supercaps will make short work of all the assets that you bring to it. In HS they would be just a cosmetic addition as all the industry related stuff can do done (painfully)with the current POSes.

    I think if you can get one or two things that would make life easier for POS managers and ask CCP to improve it, it would be fine, but lock all of a expansion just to make the life of a "lot" (how much is this a lot anyway?) of people more pleasant and easy and leave all the rest behind for one more year is a bad move.

    Like most people in this game I wan't new things to do and play with, and not one more thing that don't touch my game play at all but make a small subset of players life easier.

  16. If CCP think they can just brush this aside dispite two steps efforts we should force the subject during fanfest at every chance....round tables, dev talks, pub crawls

  17. I don't believe that it only is a small portion that would benefit from a better pos system.
    Any corp member that stores some stuff inside a pos (and thats almost everyone since everyone is lazy and prefers storing his/her stuff in the system they are in instead of flying X jumps to the next station.

    And no, not every corp can place its own outpost at will and only one per system is limiting this option anyway.

    Pos improvements would benefit the majority of players even a lot of them in high sec cause of high sec poses. Managing 10+ Laboratories on an Empire pos is hard work and could be a lot easier.

    [damn open ID mess up with identities...]

  18. I support a revamp, as a former null dweller, a former WH dweller, and as a high/lowsec indy player, currently the roles are screwed, the systems are counterintuitive, and the lore behind broadcast power of any kind sucks. not only is the system almost impossible to understand, it is so bad that veteran players, from the days of B.O.B., and four years toons can't lock it down. Our corporation lost 4.1 billion to the broken system, and i would like to see it fucking fixed.